2012 Trade Announcements

[guaranteeed]

Smoke trades
Martinez
7th round 2013 MLB draft pick

I trade
Jim Johnson

I also receive the right to swap 2nd round minor league 2013 draft picks

[Smokedawg]

Confirmed

[Yanks27Sox9]

Jun 8, 2012 12:14:28 GMT -5 guaranteeed said:

Smoke trades
Martinez
7th round 2013 MLB draft pick

I trade
Jim Johnson

I also receive the right to swap 2nd round minor league 2013 draft picks

approved...and including the minor league picks.

[trueblue]

Scarf trades Rodney and betancourt

True trades Stubbs and 6th rd 2013 major pick

[eggman]

trade with Fondy is confirmed.

[fondybadger]

Jun 11, 2012 8:39:26 GMT -5 eggman said:

trade with Fondy is confirmed.

Fondy Trades:
Ike Davis (gml 3)
Mike Minor (gml 3)
Christian Bethancourt (minor league)
2013 5th Round Major (my pick)

Egg Trades:
Jose Valverde
Jason Motte
2012 2nd Round June
2013 * Round Major

* Egg will choose and convey the pick to Fondy by 2/26/13 with the pick being no worse than what would be egg's first unused pick when draft order is set on 3/1/13.

[Yanks27Sox9]

Jun 9, 2012 12:42:20 GMT -5 trueblue said:

Scarf trades Rodney and betancourt

True trades Stubbs and 6th rd 2013 major pick

approved

[Yanks27Sox9]

Jun 11, 2012 12:52:17 GMT -5 fondybadger said:

Jun 11, 2012 8:39:26 GMT -5 eggman said:

trade with Fondy is confirmed.

Fondy Trades:
Ike Davis (gml 3)
Mike Minor (gml 3)
Christian Bethancourt (minor league)
2013 5th Round Major (my pick)

Egg Trades:
Jose Valverde
Jason Motte
2012 2nd Round June
2013 * Round Major

* Egg will choose and convey the pick to Fondy by 2/26/13 with the pick being no worse than what would be egg's first unused pick when draft order is set on 3/1/13.

assuming this isn't a joke...not approved.

will give my reasons in the next post...but would listen to an attempt to justify the deal.

[Yanks27Sox9]

RE: Eggman/Fondy trade not being approved.

Bottom line, i see this as hurting Eggman's team now and in the future. Makes zero sense from my point of view. While I agree, Eggman should sell assets he's not keeping...like closers...he should be getting pieces that'll help him down the road.

Ike Davis & Mike Minor are both having very poor seasons to date. Not sure it's possible they could be doing worse, lol. Sure, they're GmL-3 players...and may turn things around, this year or some future year. But how much can one roster be handicapped? And will they ever even be worth the roster spot? They certainly aren't right now...on any team's roster.
Eggman's already got 10 GmLs + 1 demoted GmL, with more on the way. Plus, like with others, he's already had to cut ties with an underperforming GmL this season in Morel. But how far can this go? Maybe one of the reasons his team is struggling are too many GmLs, as they're not all productive...&/or not all remotely better than what's on the wire at any given time.
Anyhow, it can be argued (in theory) that Davis/Minor carry value long term. That (& how much) is a matter of opinion. But considering Eggman's current list of GmLs, and the significant handicaps already in place with his roster, it doesn't look good or bode well.

Now add in the rest of the deal...which makes this seem like a joke. Christian Bethancourt has basically lost all prospect value, even though his was brief. And it's absolutely less value than the #13 overall June pick, even in a weak draft. So that's a loss.
Then considering the GmLs in place...and barring Eggman simply dropping a couple GmLs that are a waste of roster space...like Davis & Minor are this season...the 2013 Major pick he'll be giving up is anywhere from a round to 2 rounds higher than the one he's getting in this deal. So that's a loss too.
But again, he wouldn't even be able to use a 5th Rd pick w/out trading a few earlier picks in subsequent deals, or cutting people, as his roster will be full by then.

Anyhow, all of it makes zero sense for a rebuilding team selling closers. Take on a couple worthless (at the moment) GmLs...take a lessor prospect than who you'll be drafting soon...and take a pick that you won't even use, while giving up a pick that'll be round(s) higher. What am i missing? Crap, crap, and more crap...for a couple closers he should move.

Anyhow, go ahead & try to rework. There's no way i can pass this thru. And like i posted on yahoo, no more of this contingent stuff. All traded assets need to be specific from now on...as I can't assume something like Eggman will be dropping his 4 worst GmLs three months from now.

[fondybadger]

I agree with many of the points Yanks make about roster limitations and how too many gml's can hurt, more than help, a roster. I'm sure that this is something Egg has been learning, and he will continue to adjust his approach in the coming seasons. With that in mind, I believe the deal should stand as it was constructed.

All the pieces involved in this trade fits the parameters of how the market developed this season. In one deal you have a throw-away player in JD Martinez & a 7th round pick going for one of the league leaders in saves and the current 51st ranked player in Jim Johnson. In the second deal, you have an injured Drew Stubbs and a 6th round choice going for another league leader in saves in Fernando Rodney (34th ranked) and Betancourt (116th ranked).

I used both of those deals as guidelines in putting together my package. The 5th round pick I am giving up should easily be worth either of Egg's two closers ranked 111th (Motte) or 167th (Valverde).

The value of Ike Davis could really be debated. At the start of the season, it was a virtual coinflip in who was selected in redrafts. While Stubbs numbers so far on the season have been by far superior, Davis is coming off an ACL injury and some bumps in the road should be expected. While I didn't expect so many, so late in the season, it is not out of the ordinary for power hitters coming off this type of injury. I can tell you I wouldn't trade Ike Davis for a 7th, 6th, or even a 5th round pick. While I would consider a player of the caliber of Drew Stubbs for Ike Davis, I personally prefer the power/average upside of Ike Davis moving forward. On top of that, he's a free keeper through 2015, where I believe scarf will use a keeper spot on Stubbs or have nothing to show next season.

There should be no question that Ike & 5th round pick = two closers in the market that had already been established.

As for the other parts of the deal, Christian Bethancourt was the 37th ranked player for Scout in the preseason and he was a top 100 player for ESPN/MLB.com, and was a "just missed" for Baseball America. His numbers as a 20-year in AA are solid, especially for a young catcher. Nothing this season should have diminished his prospect rankings, as he was always known for his defense and ability to stay behind the plate in the bigs. With almost any defensive catcher, offensive ability at the MLB level is hit or miss, and the jury is still out on Bethancourt. The 13th ranked player in our June draft, should be ranked around where Bethancourt was this past season in next year's prospect lists. A BA article I read predicted 11-13 players would be on their top 100 list next season. Bethancourt is already in AA and any person I pick will be in extended spring training of A ball at this time next season. Value-wise the two are almost equal if you go by the lists. I like having the pick as I can go more high upside by taking a bigger risk, while Egg is getting a proven commodity without having to take the risk of where he's going to be ranked.

Not mentioned in all of this was my inclusion of Mike Minor. His first few games of the season he was a top 50 ranked player (think until game 3/4). He's averaging almost a k/inning, and while his era/whip is inflated, his last few games have looked like he is turning it around. His numbers are comparable to some of the other young pitching prospects this season. If it was the other way around, and I was the one acquiring the young pitching prospect for pennies on the dollar, I'm sure I would have heard about that too.

As for the major league pick that is coming back to me, in my trade offer I asked for a major league pick that egg would not be using to come back to me. As he did not name the round of the pick when he accepted, I worded it the way I did here on proboards. I assume that would be an 8th-10th round pick after egg made some cuts after the season. I see very little value in that expected pick.

Generally, you want rebuilding teams to acquire gmls/picks for things that will be worthless to them next season. If I, or other teams, cannot offer those assets to egg, it doesn't leave much more to offer him without greatly overpaying. I was telling Lacey when I made this offer, that I felt I was giving up more than the other deals that were getting completed and I was overpaying.

Generally, I know when deals I'm working on are going to cause a "shitstorm." I never thought this one was going to be an issue.

[fondybadger]

One thing I forgot to mention in my previous post is the value other team owners have of June picks this season. I attempted to trade both of my 1st round picks, both top 8 (and top 8 were considered a higher tier during the draft), and was not offered anything of value for them. No one wanted to trade for the picks. So I spent time researching and have identified a few players I will have on my list at those spots and a few others I like. If the #13 pick is more valuable than I have been considering it, I am having a hard time believing that based on all the inquries I received on my league wide post saying I wanted to move my picks.

[trueblue]

I think what John is trying to say is that he would like to see a trade that benefits Egg's clear future needs as there is a very marginal gain for him at this point. This has nothing to do with the general "fairness" of the deal, but the situation that egg's team is in. I completely agree that this deal is in the ballpark of fair on a general scale if you earnestly believe Davis comes back from injury, but the reality is that egg's recognizable gain is very small. When a team is struggling you can't be arguing the what ifs and potential upside from a A ball player who has lost his luster. You need reliable results that have a high probablity of panning out.

On that end, Stubbs has put up consecutive 20/30 and 15/40 seasons. He also is on track to have another 15/40 season after being rested with a minor nagging injury. What has Ike Davis done the past two years and what is he doing now? Two completely different pieces if you ask me.

My .02, respect.

[Yanks27Sox9]

imo, it's a complete garbage dump onto Eggman's team.

of course it can be argued that it's fair relative to other deals...looking at "what ifs"...or looking at things at other points in time. but it does not fit in any way with Eggman's team, or the position he's put himself in regarding his team...now or in the forseeable future.

[Yanks27Sox9]

most importantly...

Eggman will have 8 keepers next year, like everyone else.
Eggman will have 13 to 14 GmLs, as things stand now...and if that trade was allowed.
Eggman already has an extra 3rd Rd major in 2013, and hasn't traded away any top picks.

So best case, he'd be done with the draft after the 3rd round. Worst case, he wouldn't even be able to use his second 3rd rd major next season.

So how does a '13 5th rd major carry any value whatsoever for his particular team? Like i said, am i supposed to assume he'll be cutting ties with poor GmLs...like Morel, Minor, Davis, etc? If so, what good are they to him now or later?
In other words, it can't be both of the above. Either the GmLs have value, or the pick has value. In his specific situation, it obviously can't be both...unless we're going to grant his team extra roster spots than the rest of us, lol.

[Smokedawg]

Jun 12, 2012 10:55:07 GMT -5 fondybadger said:

One thing I forgot to mention in my previous post is the value other team owners have of June picks this season. I attempted to trade both of my 1st round picks, both top 8 (and top 8 were considered a higher tier during the draft), and was not offered anything of value for them. No one wanted to trade for the picks. So I spent time researching and have identified a few players I will have on my list at those spots and a few others I like. If the #13 pick is more valuable than I have been considering it, I am having a hard time believing that based on all the inquries I received on my league wide post saying I wanted to move my picks.

I would have gladly traded you something for those picks...but you never respond to my emails

[fondybadger]

Jun 12, 2012 14:06:08 GMT -5 Yanks27Sox9 said:

So how does a '13 5th rd major carry any value whatsoever for his particular team? Like i said, am i supposed to assume he'll be cutting ties with poor GmLs...like Morel, Minor, Davis, etc?

The 5th round major and the gmls carry decent value to my roster. Why should I be worried about the other teams roster when I make my trade offers. Shouldn't they be judging that for themselves? What I'm giving up must be of value to Egg as he negotiated for and accepted the deal. Just because you don't think it "works" for his roster, doesn't mean I should be offering him Joey Votto or 1st round picks for his closers to get a deal done. I offered him what I consider superior value to recent deals and he chose to accept the offer. With the argument you're using for why the deal shouldn't go through then Smoke's deal should have never gone through either (which it should have).

We each have teams to manage. Let the managers manage them in the way they feel is appropriate. If they make "mistakes" or don't look at things the way you do your own team, who cares. That's part of the fun in having different outlooks. Egg's an active owner, pays his league fees, and responds to emails and offers. I date "rape" him. If the deals fair in terms of other deals, there's no collusion, then there is no way it should be vetoed.

[fondybadger]

Jun 12, 2012 12:17:59 GMT -5 trueblue said:

I think what John is trying to say is that he would like to see a trade that benefits Egg's clear future needs as there is a very marginal gain for him at this point. This has nothing to do with the general "fairness" of the deal, but the situation that egg's team is in. I completely agree that this deal is in the ballpark of fair on a general scale if you earnestly believe Davis comes back from injury, but the reality is that egg's recognizable gain is very small. When a team is struggling you can't be arguing the what ifs and potential upside from a A ball player who has lost his luster. You need reliable results that have a high probablity of panning out.

On that end, Stubbs has put up consecutive 20/30 and 15/40 seasons. He also is on track to have another 15/40 season after being rested with a minor nagging injury. What has Ike Davis done the past two years and what is he doing now? Two completely different pieces if you ask me.

My .02, respect.

I get your first part of this, but I need someone to explain to me why should I have to overpay to trade with a particular team, when that team owner feels they are getting the value they want? I've offered plenty of different scenarios to eggs team and tailored by offers to the feedback I was given. What I offered was fair in terms of the other deals and what the other team wanted.

True, as for your comment "You need reliable results that have a high probablity of panning out." - I disagree with that. When I was rebuilding I took chances on guys. Most of us are gamblers and that's what we do. Ike Davis is a piece that is a serious buy low candidate that egg is getting cheap.

Based on a lot of stuff I'm hearing, can I trade Joe Nathan for Matt Moore and that be o.k.?

[fondybadger]

Jun 12, 2012 14:09:29 GMT -5 Smokedawg said:

I would have gladly traded you something for those picks...but you never respond to my emails

I talked to you a little bit, but I was not willing to package a premium prospect + June 1st for Cueto/Haren of the world. You had to have seen the message I posted in Yahoo about work/mother. By the time I was able to get around to things again after that, you already made a post saying that your firesale was over. You know me, I'm almost always ready to trade something.

[fondybadger]

Jun 12, 2012 14:06:08 GMT -5 Yanks27Sox9 said:

Either the GmLs have value, or the pick has value. In his specific situation, it obviously can't be both...unless we're going to grant his team extra roster spots than the rest of us, lol.

There's trade value and about 65% of the season left to make determinations for next year on gml cuts and keepers. Getting a 4th or 5th round pick (which he'd have extra) for an 8th keeper would benefit him greatly. Something none of the competing teams would do now, but would gladly take at the end of the season. Good luck getting any value for marginal closers come the offseason. The best time for him to trade closers is now. Egg may have some work to do getting his roster in shape, but he's getting the value he needs for the picks, and it provides him a lot more flexibility.

[Yanks27Sox9]

appreciate your position, and appreciate the lawyering...but the trade is a joke, and i have to veto it.

not even sure where to begin, or if i should even bother explaining further. will just fall on deaf ears. but fwiw, everyone i've had contact with thinks it's ridiculous as well.

[Yanks27Sox9]

"The 5th round major and the gmls carry decent value to my roster. Why should I be worried about the other teams roster when I make my trade offers. Shouldn't they be judging that for themselves?"

Those 2 GmLs carry zero value for just about every roster right now, including your own.

The 5th Rd Major carries zero value for Eggman, because as things stand today, he'll be done drafting after the 3rd Rd.

Guess you shouldn't "worry" about other teams, as that's my job. And i've proven that i'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt, knowing i don't know everything...like with adam lind. But if a team is showing me that they can't "judge" for themselves, like with GSRO or someone else last year, I have to jump in.

You want everything to go thru, but it can't be that way. You prove that fact year after year.

[Yanks27Sox9]

ok, moving forward...know that every traded piece needs to have a specific value assigned to it. (in other words, i'm not going to guess that it would be a 4th Rd major coming back to you any more.)

you shouldn't have to overpay for closers, so go rework the thing...and actually give eggman something of value...don't just take, take, take while passing off garbage, garbage, garbage. normally, people pay a little something to have someone come & haul it away.

if eggman's not a fit because of his GmL situation, then it is what it is. can't help you there...as i can't let that team get anymore handicapped than it already is. and i can't assume anything different than the current situation when it comes to roster sizes, etc.

and lets save the ridiculous comments...like the votto or moore "comparisons." not going to be spun off topic by BS.

[guaranteeed]

Moore available for a closer?

[Coffee's 4 Closers Only]

I think it's important to express support for John vetoing this trade. His only motivation is to make a decision in the best interests of our league - he didn't do it for the benefit of his team. I appreciate the spirited defense of the trade but I agree with the others in that there's no doubt this should have been rejected.

[Yanks27Sox9]

thanks. would be interesting to hear egg's perspective. sure his intentions are sound...just don't believe he's studied the ramifications/results.